Why Dementia Is An Unexpected Gift

with Melissa Smith-Wilkinson &
Jennifer Bute
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Listen as Dr. Jennifer Bute shares why dementia has been an unexpected gift.

Dr. Jennifer Bute lives in a Dementia inclusive retirement village. She was diagnosed with dementia ten years ago. She speaks at conferences and on the radio and has been involved in television programs raising awareness and understanding dementia. She passionately believes more can be done to improve both the present and the future for those living with dementia.

Her Book: Purchase Here

Website: Glorious Opportunity

Facebook: Visit Here

Melissa Smith

Oh, boy. Well, Jennifer, it is absolutely an honor and a privilege to have you chat with us today. And when I first learned about you, it was actually through Catherine Watson, who I work with quite often, with Find Houston Senior Care. And she interviewed you, and I just thought, "wow", and what a beautiful story that you have. And so, I'll share with those listening with us live that you live in a dementia, inclusive retirement village. You previously worked in Africa as a doctor before working as a GP for 25 years, involved in medical education. And you were diagnosed with dementia about 10 years ago. And you speak quite often. You're evidently more of a pro on Zoom than I am, and I love that. And you are so passionate about sharing this, what you consider a glorious opportunity. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and your book, which I devoured, called Dementia from the Inside, talks about this glorious opportunity. Would you share what that means for you?

Jennifer Bute

Well, we all choose with what we do with what we have, don't we? We can't alter many, many things. So, let's do something positive with it to help others. If we have a tough time, let us learn through it and then try and help others with what we've learned. Um, you know, it's a privilege if we can do that, isn't it? It's wonderful. So, it's a privilege as well as an opportunity.

 

Melissa Smith

Well, and as I was reading your autobiography and learning more and more about your background, in particular, I was struck by your faith. And you-- this is really who you are and your identity. Would you like to share a little bit more about that?

Jennifer Bute

 Well God is extremely important to me, I know he's not to other people, but he loves us all whether we want him to or not. And for me, it gives purpose, and reason, and ability to understand, and that everything --nothing is wasted in God's economy. So, whatever awful things happen to us, and I've had quite a few, not all were in the book. We can learn from it and, you know, when God sent his son Jesus, he had a rough time, too, but he didn't moan and groan about it afterwards, or before. So, let's just make the most of what we have. And, you know, we can always help other people in some way and care for them and show love and kindness to them. So where do I get that from? Well, as far as I'm concerned, it comes from God.

 

Melissa Smith

Well, to me, it's quite extraordinary. And I think, you know, you see this in so many... In longevity, purpose, and meaning and a sense of faith and a sense of belonging and connection, and to me, you seem to epitomize that. You just have this extraordinary faith and it really is woven throughout your life. Some of your stories of being in Africa and what you were able to do. You shared that you once went, I think, on a solo trip and served as a doctor. And I don't know how many hundreds of people you saw and were able to help. Do you want to share a little bit about your time in Africa?

Jennifer Bute

Well, again, it was an opportunity and a privilege. I had very good training, you know, I had. So, we have so much, so let's share it with those that don't have. And to me, all people are equal. You know, I don't care two hoots, what their, you know, their backgrounds, or race, or IQs, or bank balances are. Everyone has equal value as far as I'm concerned. So, it was wonderful to go out to Africa and work among the Zulu people, who didn't speak English. And I had to learn their language. And they were so grateful. You know, I learned from them. They were so grateful for anything that you did to help them. They never complained. It's so different to people in the West. And they would queue-- in Africa, tomorrow is another day, as they say, and they would wait, and wait for hours in a queue. You know, if I had 250 people to see they didn't care how long it took.

 

Melissa Smith

Wow

 

Jennifer Bute

You know, so we learn from others. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where, or who they are. We could always learn from other people know.

Melissa Smith

It's so interesting to pick up on not only that sense of gratitude, but there isn't a sense of urgency that there is here. Everything has to happen yesterday. And I'm curious what now, experiencing dementia yourself, what is your sense of time? Do you have? How does that feel?

 

Jennifer Bute

You see it's nothing I learned from the Africans. I can remember one day, I still remember it, looking up at the sunsets, they were beautiful because the ground was so flat and there was a rubbish dump in front of me. But you didn't have to look at the rubbish. You could look at the wonderful sunset. And some of the local people said to me, "What on earth are you doing?" So, I said, I'm just so grateful for this view. "Why are you grateful for the view? We want food to eat. That's what we're grateful for," and I had to learn that what might mean a lot to us doesn't always mean something to other people. So, for me now, when I can't do so much. Well, that's the immaterial, that's me. Let's see what I can do with what I do have to help other people and care for them. Isn't that right?

Melissa Smith

Oh, my goodness, absolutely. When I hear you say that, I think how you're just "here I am and here's what I have to offer, and here are my gifts, and how can I be of service?"  And what a beautiful way to live. You know. You wanted to talk a little bit more about, and I would like to talk about, how to improve living with dementia in particular. So, you share quite a bit, and I'll encourage people to read your stories that you write on Facebook just about, just everyday life. There's a story that you wrote recently about running into someone, not recognizing him and his, I think, daughter, granddaughter. And then you laugh. They you all laughed, and suddenly you had a recognition and a connection. And I thought, how beautiful, because it's not their face, or any physical features, that helps you connect with a person, or a spark. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

 

Jennifer Bute

It's recognizing people for me is extremely difficult. I didn't recognize my husband sometimes, or my family. In fact, I was in hospital, once my son came to visit me. He was abroad and came over specially. And after 10 minutes, he said, "Mom, you're doing so well, but you have no clue who I am." Sorry, I've forgot now what you've asked me. Sorry, I forgotten what you asked me.

Melissa Smith

No, I asked about how when you see someone and you're not able to recognize their face, but you can recognize by their laughter, or by their smile, or some other connection.

 

Jennifer Bute

It's their mannerisms. I can remember again in South Hampton, I met our senior practice nurse when I was out, and she obviously knew who I was. I didn't have a clue who she was, she told... You know, my husband was with me, so he asked her name and it didn't mean anything to me. So, I could see her, I knew her name, meant nothing. And suddenly she did something with her arms. It was her mannerisms, it was her body language, and I thought, Oh, yes, of course I know who you are. So, in our brain, things are tied up in different places. I'm sure you know that. Facts and emotions, we know in different places, but words and their meanings are in different places, too. So, a name, but a meaning, you know how it connected with it somehow, the mannerism, or the laughter, or something I can connect. And in our brain, we've got so many connections and my passion is to find someone and people think "they're not there anymore. They're just an empty shell." That is not true. And I use the analogy, don't I, in the book about, you know, if we go and visit somebody and ring the bell and there's no answer, what do we do? Do we give up and go home? Well, some people do. They say there's nobody there. Well, maybe there is. Maybe they're unconscious on the floor. Maybe they're asleep in bed. Maybe they can't open the front door. Maybe they've broken their leg, maybe anything. So, what would we do? We would go round the back, wouldn't we? Try the back door look in through the window. Get a ladder, we would use all kinds of things to try and reach that person. So, why don't we do that with dementia, people with dementia? And I'm sure, you know, many people say people with dementia just before they die, they have this period of lucidity. And most people say, yes, it's wonderful just before they die. Well, doesn't that prove that they were there all the time? But they were, you know, they couldn't find the person. So, my passion is to find the people that other people, say aren't there, but sadly, some people don't want to find the person. It's true.

Melissa Smith

And I think sometimes, too, they're not equipped, or don't know how to look through the back door. I love your analogy. Or they can't-- they don't think that way. They think they must find the person the way they've always found the person, when indeed the person is different now. So, we have to join them in their experience and see how...

 

Jennifer Bute

We have to remember that everyone is different. So, we can't expect everyone to do it the same way. You're absolutely right. And often the caregivers, or the family, who can't or won't, it's not their fault. They have an issue, or a concern, or problem that we need to care about, as well. So, there's always a reason, isn't there?

 

Melissa Smith

Yes. Well, sometimes the back door is music. And I love that you love music and you talk about having your music player with you in your pocket, or where you can listen to it, and the impact that it has on your mood and how you feel. Is there --is it music from your childhood, or music hymns? What kind of music do you listen to?

Jennifer Bute

It's all kinds. You see, music again is one of my passions that people should use it more.

 

Melissa Smith

Yeah.

 

Jennifer Bute

You see, we're immersed in rhythms since conception, aren't we, with our mother's heartbeat. So, we were, you know, we've never existed without rhythm. And then, of course, you know, the mothers walk, even the rhythm of the mother's walk and her voice. So, we've always had rhythm in our lives and as children, we'd grow up with lullabies. And that often, still now, when people are agitated, you know, singing with them can sometimes calm them. But we all become different as we become teenagers, don't we? And cultures are different. I mean, in Africa their music is wonderful, but it's quite different to ours'. So, if we played classical music for, you know, a local African would never been doing that, it wouldn't mean anything, would it? If we played this wonderful drum music and so on, to us, maybe some people wouldn't-- it wouldn't respond to. So, music is specific to the person and music evokes emotion. And emotion is often the reason that people are able to communicate again, or relax, or find joy, or comfort for different reasons. And that's what's so wonderful that we can find music to fit any mood that we have. And one day, no doubt, there will be machines, or things that we can-- that will do that without us having to ask them because they will know what our emotion is without asking. 

Melissa Smith

Possibly, yes. It's hard to imagine that, but it's probably around the corner. You know, you have used and learned a special technique from a Japanese memory group. And this is so fascinating to me because you've talked about-- I love that you talked about --you bank online, but if you were to give you some coins, and things like that, that that would be difficult or challenging. But it's a marvel to me. Banking online, I have trouble banking online. Some like, you know. And so, I think that also speaks to how different people are. So, you cannot make assumptions in terms of dementia on any capabilities whatsoever. But I noticed on one of the sample sheets from the Japanese memory group, there's a lot of math and there's many different things. Would you talk a little bit more about what that is and what makes it special?

 

Jennifer Bute

Yes. Um, I found out by mistake. You see, this is a joy, isn't it? We learn and then we pass it on. I heard a lecture by a Japanese professor, which is why I call my group's Japanese family groups, and he was sharing video evidence of making older people in Japan who had dementia do things like one in one, make two, or doing lines and circles, the kind of things we would do with toddlers. And I realized what he was really talking about was reading, writing, and arithmetic. And I thought, well, that makes sense because that's how my brain was wired up when I was a kid. We go to school and we do the three R's reading, writing, and arithmetic. Even if it's simple, even toddlers, we get them crosses and circles and one and one, make two, simple. But with the Japanese professor, he showed that people with disturbed behavior would calm down after doing this. Or someone who is lying in bed, being spoon fed after a few weeks of being made to learn a few of these things, we can't do that here, of course, would be sitting up in a wheelchair feeding themselves with a spoon. And I thought, if this is true, why on earth aren't we doing it? So, I've been doing the groups here for nine years and I've learned because I started off with preschool materials, but that did not go down very well.

Melissa Smith

Oh, OK.
 

Jennifer Bute

Because it was with adults. So, I had to do my own materials and every week it's different. Now the math, it's irrelevant what the answers are. So, the math at the end it's nothing to do with whether the answers are right. For some reason, thinking about numbers, you know, the arithmetic in our brain enables new neurons to kind of tie up and form. It enables us to learn more things. Just as music does, singing does, and it's true, and people who've come to my groups, --I mean, it's fun, it's the laughter as well. --We always start with music or singing. And reading poetry, I've found out, if people could read poetry, we'd read it all together and I'd notice people who were normally mute, you know, with their dementia, unable to say a word, could read a familiar poem. Not any old poem, it had to be a familiar one.

Melissa Smith

That's amazing.

 

Jennifer Bute

Just as after music they can sometimes talk. Well after reciting a familiar poem, the same thing would happen. So, you know, this was just wonderful, wasn't it? So, the answer is not, it's not relevant, but it's the math. So, we must do math. And according to the professor, we had to do all three. So. And people don't mind, they just laugh and get the answers wrong.

 

Melissa Smith

Right.

 

Melissa Smith

It takes the pressure off. No need to get the answer right.

 

Jennifer Bute

It's a joke. And I always have a mistake in the booklet and it's a competition. "Let's find Jennifer's deliberate mistake." But it's not deliberate. But, because I make mistakes, they don't mind making mistakes either.

Melissa Smith

And how, so I'm curious, how you --and I'd love to talk about poetry, it's really one of my favorite things. And I actually have thought about how little I remember from when we were younger, we were made to memorize some poems and things like that. I don't think my son has been made to memorize some poetry yet, and he's 15, so maybe I should make him memorize some, as a family project. How do you discover what poems they remember? Is it --do you just, do you have some poems and you are reading some, kind of guessing the time frame? I mean, how are you discovering what resonates with them or how they remember?

 

Jennifer Bute

Well, they're famous poems that every one of my generation would know, and they're probably different in America, but there are certain poems like the Pied Piper of Hamelin. You know, we all do that at school and The Highwaymen and other poems that everybody knows and would have heard when they were a child. And they seem to need to be stories and poems and songs that came from their childhood. Because that's where it goes back to. You know, another of my passions is getting people to talk and once there was a couple here and the husband said his wife didn't talk anymore. And that's a red rag to bulls for me. So, I went out to see her, tried one of my five methods to get her to talk, and she started talking what I thought was rubbish. And I said, well, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to happen, and he looked at his wife and started talking to her in the same gobbledygook. He said "she's talking Danish." He said "I met her when we were both in Denmark."

Melissa Smith

Wow

 

Jennifer Bute

So, I said, oh, she's gone back that far. So, you need to find Danish fairy stories, or Danish stories, or Danish poetry or songs and play those to her because that's where she was at. Does that make sense?

 

Melissa Smith

Absolutely. Would you share briefly a few of those five techniques that you use? How did you know what to do with her? What did you try?

Jennifer Bute

Well, it's all, you see I have such a privilege here. There’re so many other people living with dementia. We have our independent living with help, some need a lot of help, and then we have a nursing home, and then we have advanced dementia unit with the same kind of staff. So, it's like we're all kind of friends. And I've got to know people as they've walked that path. So, I get lots of practice of what works and I learn and learn. So, the usual simple ways, but I've learned more ways. So, the biggest difficulty is when people ask questions. You know, I'd go over to the advanced dementia unit and I'd see someone that I knew well with advanced dementia sitting next to goodness knows who. And, you know, I would waltz in and say, oh, lovely to see you, and they would be sitting in silence and I'd say to the person sitting next to them, because staff didn't wear a uniform, I said, lovely to meet you, too, but I don't know who you are, are you a member of staff? "No, I'm a relative, you know, or they would tell me what they were, a daughter, or son, or sister. And I would say oh, what a lovely mother you've got. "She doesn't talk." So, I'd say oh really, well, I have interesting conversations with her. So that the daughter would say "she doesn't, you watch, so, Mother, what did you have for lunch today?!" Well, if you ask us a factual question and we're feeling... We will freeze inside. So, I said to the daughter, may I sit down and chat to her. "If you want, waste your time." So, I sat down next to her mother and I said, Oh, it's so lovely to see you, you've got such a lovely smile. Isn't it lovely to see the blue sky outside and all the trees are growing, aren't they? So, I didn't look at her. I didn't talk to her. I talked about other things, and suddenly she joined in. "Oh, yes, it's lovely, isn't it? And you can see..." And the daughter was astounded.

Melissa Smith

Wow.

 

Jennifer Bute

That's what I call parallel conversation, because asking questions just doesn't work, it doesn't.

 

Melissa Smith

That's beautiful, you know, part of chatting with you is a little bit emotional for me, my stepmother had early onset is what we called it then. Right. So, young onset and for us when I saw her after she lost language, it was all music.

 

Jennifer Bute

Yes.

 

Melissa Smith

It's all music. She would she would tap she would start to hum. It was just this life that would come back when there was even no more language. And prior to that, I would often do that technique where we would look at, you know, I would notice what she was wearing. And that was something that I noticed you mentioned. It's so helpful when people wear bright colors and, you know, more about mannerisms and tone. I think what a beautiful reminder for us, even when we are not interacting with someone with dementia, how we should interact in our daily lives anyway. Right.

Jennifer Bute

Yes, but don't feel bad. I mean, I felt so bad when my father had dementia and I did my best.

 

Melissa Smith

Right.

 

Jennifer Bute

But my word, I didn't know then what I know now. And there's no good beating myself up about it because I didn't know. But that's why I passionately want other people to know. And I loved my father dearly and he loved me, but, you know, I try to explain things to him. Well, that was a waste of time, complete waste of time. You know, I should have done other things that he could engage with. You know, if he was taken to the day center, he would be expected to do jigsaws. He hated jigsaws. So, it's a matter of what they enjoy, isn't it? And relating to them through their whatever it is rather than what we want. Um, so knowing what he liked and doing it, I mean, I did do one thing with him, -- I don't know whether I can't remember what's in my book, and isn't now. --But when his dementia was really progressing, I spent a long, long time writing to people who knew him at different stages of his life and asked them to write a short letter with a memory of something. And then, I put them in chronological orders in a folder, you know, with the plastic sleeves. This was before the days of memory boxes. This was what, 50 years ago. And he used to sit every day before he started his looking through this book to remind him of his life.

Melissa Smith

Beautiful.

 

Jennifer Bute

But I didn't know then how important that was, but now, of course, I would have had pictures and things and a lot of other things as well, but it's no good just having memory boxes with things. We've got to have; it's got to be much wider than that. But we're always learning and we can't blame ourselves for what we didn't know.

 

Melissa Smith

Absolutely. No, I agree. And I think allowing there to be that grace to release the guilt that we put on is important, not even from just the past, but just to even as we are interacting in the present. And I'm curious what I could do, what suggestions you have for me as we're chatting here. Do you see there's something that I could do differently in communicating with you or asking you questions?

 

Jennifer Bute

Well, I think you're being brilliant, because a lot of people once they hear, you have dementia, assume that you are completely stupid. Well, I am compared to what I was, but, you know, I can still relate to some extent and I can talk, even if I can't read, or remember things. I can still talk, even if I forget my train of thought. And you are coming over to me as someone who cares about what I want to say.

 

Melissa Smith

Very much.

Jennifer Bute

Because we can tell. You know, we know if someone's interested. Unfortunately, this morning I was talking to several people and I could tell quite clearly those that were interested in what I had to say, or I was asking and others who couldn't care a hoot, you can tell and I can tell that you care. So, thank you.

 

Melissa Smith

Well, thank you. And I, I am, I cannot tell you how just delighted and amazed at how much you want to share and offer your experiences and how practical they are. I know one of the books that you recommend on your website is Still Alice and back in the day when there were no books about Alzheimer's and certainly none about young onset, that was sort of the only thing in there. And I remember my father giving that to me, saying this is exactly what I'm experiencing with Marcy. You know, she would put things in the freezer and, you know, wonder where they are, or over water the plants. And it was so interesting, even though it was a fictional account, to be able to kind of dive inside. And to me, what your book has done and what you are doing right now allows us that window and that door and you're saying, come on inside. And it's really quite extraordinary. I don't know if you realize how extraordinary you are.

 

Jennifer Bute

Well I'm still learning, I'm still learning.

 

Melissa Smith

And I love that because I think there is a perception and, I've been guilty of saying this, that there is a perception of unlearning. As dementia progresses, what would you say to that? How is it that you are still learning?

Jennifer Bute

Oh, no, that's not so. People can still learn. I found that here, you know, that's what's so glorious living among these dear folks, walking that paths with them. To find they can still relearn, but not everything, but some things still. There's a dear person here with me who knows all the bird songs, and he is trying to teach me. Well I don't know my bird songs. I'm trying hard to learn. So, you know, it's good. And, you know, jigsaw's, I used to be able to do jigsaws and other people didn't. We think we can't do it anymore, but we can relearn. You know, I started off with my grandchildren's Jigsaw's. You know, with three pieces and then nine pieces and then twelve. And people would say, "why bother?" Because it mattered to me. I wanted to relearn.

Melissa Smith

Right.

 

Jennifer Bute

You see, after a stroke, we relearn a lot, don't we? Have I said this bit already? You know, after a stroke we expect people to improve, don't we?

 

Melissa Smith

Yes.

 

Jennifer Bute

But it's not by sitting in front of a telly doing nothing. People are now expected to have rehabilitation, they're made to aren't they. So, if people want to relearn things, let's encourage them and enable them. Don't disable us all the time.

 

Melissa Smith

Right. Well, it's the same with our body. You know, years ago, if you had a back surgery or a back injury, you would stay in bed. Now, immediately after surgery, they're like, get up, let's go. You have to move and move your body. And I think it's very similar. Our brains need to move. Yeah, so is there anything else that you would like to share with us about improving living with dementia? I know you wanted to mention about routines and how important that was to you.

Jennifer Bute

Well patterns are important, aren't they? Because, you know, they continue. You know, I have my three principles, there is always, a reason, feelings, emotion and patterns continue. You know, that's the pattern even of the reading, writing, and arithmetic. But, you know, generally altogether, I talk about it getting on one sledge, don't I? S.L.E.D.G.E. The S and E is the social engagement. We must still engage with people. You know, the people with dementia who shut themselves away because they're ashamed or frightened. Well, they did, particularly when I first was diagnosed and people would run away from me. It's like if someone dies, they don't know how to relate to you. So, you must stay socially engaged. And then the L is laughter as we've already spoken, and the E is enjoyment and exercise. I mean our teachers used to walk up and down, didn't they, because that helped to get your brain to work. And then the D is the daily activities. You know, the routine almost, isn't it? The patterns that, give us a certain confidence. It does. And a good diet, of course. And then the G is the cheese, isn't it? Is cognitive stimulation. It's the things that I do in my Japanese memory groups and all that is getting on your sleight with the musical accompaniment.

 

Melissa Smith

Lovely. Repeat the S again. What was the S in the beginning of S.L.E.D.G.E?

 

Jennifer Bute

S and E is the social engagement.

Melissa Smith

Social engagement, that's right. OK.

 

Jennifer Bute

So, the whole lot needs to be within the context of social engagement.

 

Melissa Smith

Yes.

 

Jennifer Bute

Because we need people really to help us, don't we? Well, I do, because I can't do it all by myself anymore, I can't.

Melissa Smith

Where you live is absolutely extraordinary. And I know you get comments all the time about people wishing there was a place near them that was just like what you have. I mean, just beautiful. How much collaboration there is for you to live completely independently. And how they check on you. And you know that there's these checks and balances. It's really incredible.

 

Jennifer Bute

It's a real privilege, and I was surprised when I put that on my website, it's still there, isn't it, for those that want to see. The response that it got.

 

Melissa Smith

Yes, it's true. I mean, it just really, it's absolutely inspiring and I think if we-- and it speaks to what you said, social engagement in an environment, when we're placed in a place where we can thrive and bloom as opposed to, you know, just not feeling connected or not feeling understood. It's just really the essence of who we are.

Jennifer Bute

Yes, and not being pushed back into the past, because I'm sure, you know, there are some villages which are living in the past, aren't they?

 

Melissa Smith

Mm. How is that different from where you are now and what do you mean by the past?

 

Jennifer Bute

Well there are villages, aren’t there, I'm sure you've heard about in other countries, and in this country, and I'm sure in America where by, you know, the shops are like they used to be and you use your original currency and...  and the furniture is old and the typewriters are the clickety clack ones. Well, that's no good for me, that's no good at all, because I'm not in the past, I'm now.

 

Melissa Smith

Right.

 

Jennifer Bute

 There's no point thinking about the future because I don't know what's going to happen. Well I do, but I, you know, I'm living now in the present. I don't want to be pushed back into the past. I'm sure it helps people to progress faster. And that's not a good thing. I think we need to be helped to live in the present.

Melissa Smith

Well, that's an interesting balance, because we're meeting the person where they're at in terms of listening to music that they listen to in the past and poetry. But when I hear you saying is it's not pretending, we're in the past.

 

Jennifer Bute

Yeah, yes.

 

Melissa Smith

It's being present, but we can enjoy the things that we enjoyed in the past, and that's a big difference. What a beautiful distinction. Thank you for that. I think, I believe there's people that needed to hear that in terms of how we engage and how we live. Jennifer, you are just extraordinary. And I can't thank you enough. I know I learned from the moment we began our interaction, you emailed me, and what was beautiful about what you did is you said, I don't understand the form. I'm just going to email you instead. And I thought, OK, one, you spoke up and said what you needed. And I think many of us and, you know, just human nature, we often think we have to do things that are-- just because we are told we have to, but you gave me that feedback that, oh, this is not how I can do this and I really appreciate that. And all of our interaction was just such a learning experience for me. So, it was wonderful to grow from that and to know how I can be more clear and more concise and helpful.

Jennifer Bute

Thank you for being willing to listen.

 

Melissa Smith

Well, it was a phenomenal learning experience and I think a lesson in slowing down. And how I can be more clear and so thank you for that. I appreciate that. I am going to encourage everyone, you know, we've got some folks that are listening to us live and then people that will be listening to us later. If you can, absolutely buy-- I don't know, whatever your relationship is to dementia or whether you know someone. --Jennifer's book is one of the most inspiring books I've read in a long time. And one of those books where I was hungry to read more, and learn more about your past and how you've grown from it. So, thank you for sharing your story and your life with all of us and continuing to share just your present-day experiences and what you're thinking, because I think we can all learn from that, no matter what our life experiences or what our connection to dementia is. I think it's important that, that stigma is gone and that we understand, to me, my biggest learning from our chat today is that it is continuous learning and there is no unlearning. It is just learning and learning where you're at, as well. So, thank you, Jennifer. I'm going to end our live Facebook segment, so there we go. And pause our recording.